Trip Report: Blades and Bushcraft Meeting 6/23/12 – 6/24/12

This past weekend was the first New York Blades and Bushcraft meeting. For those of you who are not familiar, Blades and Bushcraft is an online forum that focuses on, you guessed it, blades and bushcraft. :) It has separate sub-boards for different locations, including New York. Using the board, some of us organized this trip.

There ended up being five of us. Here I will be using their forum names. There was Zig, mibuwulf, beanbag, Son O’ (beanbag), and me, Wood Trekker. The outing was in the Catskills, specifically, the Hunter Mountain loop. The plan was to start out on the trail at 10AM, travel about four miles to the summit of Hunter Mountain at 4040 ft. and then go down another mile to an elevation below 3500 ft. where we could set up camp for the night. The following day it would be another three miles to our starting point… In the picture below, you can see Zig and mibuwulf arriving two hours late…

No worries, though, we had plenty of time. Even going slowly at one mile per hour, we would reach our destination with plenty of time to spare. So, we set off on the trail.

After few miles, we stopped by a water source to fill up. It was a spring that had been lead to a convenient location with some pipe. Even though it was spring water, we decided to play it safe and filter it. In the picture below you see the water source, and me trying to take my Sawyer Squeeze Filter out of the Ziploc bag.

In fact, between the five of us, we had four different filters. Zig had a MSR gravity filter, mibuwulf had a Platypus gravity filter, beanbag and Son O’ had an MSR Miniworks EX, and I had my Sawyer. The results… thanks to Son O’s furious pumping action, he had filled up first. Zig had some flow issues with his filter, so we all had a nice rest. And of course, some photo opportunities.

From left to right above, Wood Trekker (me), mibuwulf, Zig, Son O’, and beanbag.

If you are wondering, the reason why mibuwulf’s backpack is so hard to see, it’s because he was using what can only be described as a day pack. We all eagerly anticipated getting to camp and seeing what type of voodoo he used to get all his gear in there.

After another mile or so, we stopped for lunch. For the location we chose a leanto site off the trail. For those of you who may not be familiar with the area, in many forests, in specific locations there are set up shelter or leanto sites. The one you see in the picture is very typical of these shelters, although newer than most. Some people like to use them instead of carrying a tent, or go to them in case of an emergency. This particular leanto was located exactly at 3500 ft, the highest elevation where you are allowed to camp overnight in the Catskills.

What made this site particularly nice was plenty of space, and the view from one of the cliffs to the side.

Of course we couldn’t resist the opportunity for another group photo.

I kept lunch simple; just a granola bar, some mixed nuts, and a powdered drink mix.

After me ate, we set off on the trail again, and after another mole or so, we reached the summit of Hunter Mountain. The marker indicated that we were at 4040 ft.

The state maintains a fire tower on some of these peaks, and there was one here as well. Some climbing allowed for a great view of the area.

From there it was another mile downhill until we reached a lower elevation of 3500 ft. The location was marked with another leanto similar to the one you saw above. We had planned on camping in that area after finding a suitable location. Unfortunately, it turned out that the terrain was not conducive to a camp site. Even though we searched for quite some time, we could not find any flat areas large enough to accommodate five people. We decided to set up camp close to the leanto itself. I generally do not like to do that, but we did not have much of a choice. As always, I had my Shangri-La 5 with me.

Beanbag and Son O’ had a two man REI tent that they were trying out for the first time, and seemed to work out pretty well. Zig and mibuwulf pulled out their hammocks, and set up nearby. 

There was a fire pit set up close to the leanto, and we quickly made use of it to roast up some peppers that Zig had brought. There was plenty of birch in the area, which made for a quick, although smoky fire. The fact that it had rained the day before, did not help with the smoke.

For dinner, we all cooked what we had brought, and shared some hotdogs that beanbag had carried. I made my usual mashed potatoes with dehydrated ground beef. I’m still using the modified Kovea Camp 5. Ordinarily, when there is a fire going I would use it to cook and save the stove fuel, but there were too many of us for me to occupy the fire pit. It wasn’t well structured for group cooking.

Beanbag and Son O’ used a MSR Pocket Rocket for cooking, Zig, used a wood gas stove, and mebuwulf used a can of ravioli that he heated up on the fire, in part explaining the small size of his pack.

We kept the fire going and killed couple of hours talking about gear and other random topics.

 

After that, we called it a night. It turned out to be colder than we expected. The rain the pervious day had really brought down the temperatures. During the night it got into the low 50s.

I got up before the rest of the group, so I took the opportunity to filter some water from a nearby stream.

When I got back people had started waking up, so we all made some breakfast. As usual, I made some oatmeal.

When we were done with breakfast, we realized with great horror that we had not cooked any bacon by hanging it from a stick the whole trip, and we started to fear that it would be disqualified as a bushcraft outing. To remedy the situation, we quickly set off making some feather sticks to the shouts of “Bushcraft! Bushcraft!”. Here is my contribution to the cause.

Mibuwulf took the opportunity to teach us how to pick up the ladies by making a flower from a stick.

To keep it safe, I also decided to whip up some cordage from grass that I found in the area which seemed suited for the task.

When we felt secure that we had met the bushcraft quota for the trip, we packed up and started down the mountain. I had been recording the trip on my GPS, but I forgot to turn it on. I remembered a bit later, but you will notice the lack of record for this section of the trip in the GPS image further down.

The way down followed a section of Devil’s path. It is generally a very hard trail, but this portion was not too bad.

There were stinging and wood nettles (later distinguished by Zig) everywhere. Son O’ got it pretty bad, although it didn’t seem to slow him down.

I spotted some chaga on a birch tree off to the side of the trail. We stopped to collect some of it.

We divided it up. Incidentally, this is when I remembered to turn the GPS back on.

Further down, the trail started following a river, which lead us to a small waterfall.

We decided to stop there for lunch. Some of our more adventurous members, Zig, beanbag and Son O’, decided to go for a swim. I stayed up on the rocks.

Mibuwulf joined me. He in turn was joined by a butterfly which insisted on staying on his shoulder.

We finished lunch, dried off, and kept going. On our way, I spotted some strawberries. There was even an actual strawberry on one of the plants. Zig took care of it.

There were also some other berries we couldn’t identify.

Not surprisingly, not too far from the area, a bit further into the woods, there was a pile of bear scat.

We kept following the river almost all the way out. Soon we were back at our starting point. The trip had been about eight miles in length, with about 2000 ft increase in elevation. Below you can see the tracks recorded by the GPS. You will notice that for one of the section there is a straight line. That is the part where I forgot to turn on the unit. The red line I have added approximates the actual route that we took. The arrow on the left tip of the track was our starting point.

You can also see the elevation profile. It wasn’t anything too extreme, but made for a fun, challenging trip. 

I can’t say enough about how great all these guys were. Everyone got along great, and we all seemed to enjoy a similar approach to the woods. Usually I like to keep to myself whenever I go out, but I would go into the woods with these guys anytime. I look forward to the next trip, which will hopefully be soon. Lastly, please check out the Blades and Bushcraft forum. It is a great place for like mined people.

Finnish Axes Part 2: History - Kellokoski

This is part two of Ozme’s set of posts about Finnish axes. For more indormation, please check out his blog Bush n’ Blade.

Kellokoski:

        This image is taken from the Kellokoski catalog of 1922.

 

 

 

 

History in brief:

(Note: My skill of Finnish language sucks; I might understand it wrong….)

- In 1750’s, the development of Kellokoski has started around the mansion of Kellokoski

- Starting from the development of farming and livestock industry, the are grew to become a viledge of kellokoski in 1795. The Kellokoski tehdas or Mariefors Bruk, knowne as Kellokoski was the first manufacturing plant build in the area.

- The production plant has enjoyed its peak in mid-1800 with rod metal as the major product. But toward the end of 1800, the production downsized. Only forge works were in production at that time and in 1895, Kellokoski ironworks bankruptcies.

- Following year 1896, the owner changes to John ja Carl Fredrik Carlander brathers and the Kellokoski factory was moved to new location.

- In 1962, the owner ship of the factory moves to Fiskars and in 1980’s, the mass production ends its work.

Source: http://www.tuusula.fi/

It seems so that Kellokoski was larger scale operation than Billnäs was. Also so far, I have seen Kellokoski’s axes and tools more available in flea markets.

In the above picture are three Kellokoski axes, From top right, No. 12.2, No. 20.3, No. 12.3

In the picture above, you can see 3 Kellokoski axes. All of them are similar in size as about 1.5kg. On the Kellokoski catalog of year 1922, N:o12.2 and N:o12.3 are listed as N:o12/2 and N:o12/3. According to my source, after the changes of lineups due to the production decrease, the numbering system has changed from using “/” to “.”. The model N:o20.3 is not listed on the catalog, so assuming that is a model came after the model lineup changes.

Among these axes, the model N:o20.3 has totally different shape from lest of axes. Because this axe is not a Finnish type. If look in to the catalog page 7, similar axes are categorized as an American axe.

The interesting thing about Kellokoski axes is that no punch out marking found on the axe. Only markings I can see are the forging marks.

Estimating that all of these axes are not that old, yet not new enough to be made mass production line. This makes me wonder "How late were they with implementing the mass production line…".

I have visited town of Fiskars last summer and I was lucky to run in to the special exhibition of “tools”. It was exhibited by Fiskars and had items that were come from Fiskars production.

Among those items, there was a display of axe forging process. And the sample axes were from Kellokoski. 

Above: Kellokoski axe forging process. Picture taken at “Fiskars tools exhibition” in town of Fiskars.

Unfortunately,  there was no mention of the Year made but being able to see such forging sample left for display and are in possession of Fiskarse, I am assuming that are from Fiskars era of Kellokoski.

Unable to see the punch cut markings on axes I own and those samples under Fiskars archive..., it is very much possible that Kellokoski has produced their axes by forging them till the end of factory history. 

Not having mass production line till 1980’s… I find it quite amazing.

To be continued to the next post "Axe Talk - Helve".

Finnish Axes Part 1: History - Billnas

For a while now, I have been following a series of post by a fellow blogger, OZme. He is a Japanese guy who currently resides in Finland. He noticed, just like the rest of us, that there is very little information on Finnish axes, both in terms of history and characteristic features. The series of posts that I have been following, try to provide a bit more information on the subject. Since the subject is so rarely discussed, I thought I would share it with you here with his permission. I will go through the whole series here. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Please visit his blog, Bush n’ Blade for more information.

Probably, I am not very suited person to talk about this topic as I am not experienced as much as other hundreds, if not thousands of axe man, woods man and bushcrafters out there.  But I have not seen much information about Finnish axes on internet and I start noticing growing interest on Finnish axes. So I decided to share what I know and my thoughts about Finnish axes.

Please understand that information you will see might not be true / correct because I am writing these post based on my research (which is very limited due to my lack of language skill and limited access to information) and observation. Some are what I see, feel and speculate and other are based on what I read or heard. I will provide the information source if possible. If not, I will state that the information is by speculation and/or observation.

Finnish Axes:

If you hear "Finnish axes", the first picture comes to your mind probably is the modern Fiskars axes. Those really are excellent axes; affordable, available, easy to maintain, cuts and sprits well, light weight and almost indestructible. But that is not kind of axe I am going to talk about it in here. What I would like to talk about is the good old / traditional Finnish axes.

In the picture, you see  Finnish axes and Swedish axes.  The one on right most is unknown in origin. There is no traceable making on it except that it most likely a smith forged.

As you can see that Finnish axes have quite distinctive look. Narrow and long blade shape, top tip of the blade edge is lower than top of axe, has sleeve on eye….  But before moving on to look at each axes, I would like to point out that all of these axes are factory made (except the right most one) and it is quite safe to say that these are “hardware store axe” of that time.

Let’s look at the each axes closer.

Billnäs:

         The image is taken from the Billnas catalog of 1928.

 

 

 

History in brief:

- Billnäs Bruk or Billnäsin tehtaan osakeyhtiö (Billnäs Ironworks), knowne as "Billnäs" was founded in June 1641 by Carl Billsten, the founder of Billnäs Ironworks.

- Billnäs moved to Hisinger family's possession in 1723. Johan Hisinger was especially active in building and developing the Ironworks’ operations.

- In 1883 the ownership of the Ironworks moved to Fridolf Leopold Hisinger. With the influence of the new owner, the old workshops were turned over to production plants and the production focused on doorknobs, axes, picks etc. In the busiest year 

- in 1915 the Ironworks employed 1072 people. The production of the office furniture started in Billnas in 1909.

- In 1920 the Billnas Ironworks was incorporated into Fiskars Corporation. The manufacture of old tools was continued. 

- In the late 1970s the old manufacturing facilities of the Ironworks became obsolete to the use of modern industry and the operations in the Ironworks decreased in the mid- 1980s.

- And in 1983, the Billnas Ironworks has forged the last axe.

Source: http://www.billnas.fi/fi/index.php

On the left in the above picture is a No. 300 (800g) and to the right a 1123 (1200g)

And here, I have got 2 axes from different period. The model N:o 300 has clear characteristics of mass manufacturing period. But the model seems to be existed since 1928 with different N:o.  checking from the Billnäs catalog of year 1928. There is a model N:o 61/2. Which has the same profile and specification. So it could assume that the one I got was after the reduction of product range.

The other one, N:o 1123. This was estimated as the model from pre-chainsaw era. (by the person who is more knowledgeable on this topic). As I have got this axe, it did not have the characteristics of mass manufacturing. Also the model number is punched with old numbering system.

In the picture above is a head with with the punch out mark on left and right without.

The N:o 1123 was little modified by me. The sleeve goes to helve as can see on  N:o 300 was cut off about 1cm short. I have done this to fix the unbalance caused by shortened blade length.

On the other hand, N:o 300 is varialble specimen as near perfect in condition. It has the head mass of almost same as when manufactured (assuming N:o 61/2 on year 1928 catalog is the equivalent model). Also the helve seems to be original Billnäs standard parts. (assumption based on “Luettelo Billnas'in Takeista 1928_01_01_1928.pdf” Page 77).

I must confess that at the time I got N:o 1123, My knowledge of re-handling Finnish axe was none. So the one you see on picture is fitted with Swedish style helve. Which makes this N:o 1123 a not great axe. Why? The reason was hidden in N:o 300.... but I will talk about that later.

To be continued to the next post, "Axe Talk - Kellokoski".

Dual Survival Season 3 – Drama!

So, I’ve been trying to keep you guys updated about news regarding the upcoming season of Dual Survival. As I have already mentioned, Dave Canterbury will not be returning, and will be replaced by another former soldier. Apparently he has not been on any show yet.

Well, last week Cody Lundin issued another statement regarding the cast change. Here is what he had to say:

“As has already been publicly confirmed, Dave Canterbury is no longer a part of Dual Survival. This fact has been true since September of 2011.

I have faced many questions regarding this change and much has been said on the internet as well. Any inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to Discovery Channel. However, since I have no doubt that the questions will continue, and I have an ethical and professional responsibility to do so, I am making the following statement.

The goal of the survival instructor is to keep people alive. To accomplish this goal, honesty, integrity, trust and competence must come first. These core values cannot be compromised or people’s lives are needlessly put at risk. In a profession where human lives are at stake, dishonesty about ones background and experience is an inexcusable breach of trust.

I have dedicated my life to this profession. It is my passion and livelihood and I have spent the past 23 years developing expertise in it. I hold the responsibility of being a survival skills instructor as sacred. It is incumbent upon all of us in this field to insist that the highest standards of honesty, integrity and honor are maintained at all times.

For all of the aforementioned reasons, I am proud to work with my new Dual Survival partner as we take the show to even greater levels. This is my final statement on the matter at this time. To my fans and to those who have offered support during this very challenging time, I offer my greatest gratitude and thanks.

Cody Lundin”

Now, if the above statement sounds overly dramatic to some of you, it is. It is a not so subtle jab at Dave. Those of you who have been around for a few years remember that a while back there was a whole lot of drama regarding the military record of Dave Canterbuty. Some people alleged that he had exaggerated his military background in his resume. Dave more or less admitted that he had done so, but had corrected it. I imagine that the above statement speaks to this issue.

I also think that there must have been some additional falling out between Cody and Dave. While misrepresenting one’s military record is an abhorrent act, it has little direct bearing on survival in the woods. There were probably some other issues between the two of them that caused this resentment. Either that, or Cody takes what he does way too seriously for a man with no shoes. :) I’m sure more details will come out over time.

Either way, I look forward to watching the new guy. I’m sure it will continue to be a fun show.

So, Why Bushcraft?

In the last few posts where you have seen me rambling about bushcraft, I have been very critical of the activity, and at times, admittedly, downright whiney. One may be left wondering why I waste so much time bothering with an activity which vexes me to such an extent. So, in this post, I wanted to go over some of the things I truly enjoy about bushcraft, and the value I see in it.

The truth is that the main reason why I am so critical of the activity and the direction in which I see it going is that I strongly believe that bushcraft is a valuable pursuit that has a lot to offer to the outdoorsman. Even more importantly, perhaps, it is something I greatly enjoy.

Over a year ago, I put forth some musings on the subject of defining “bushcraft”. I understand that there are many definitions out there, but as I stated then, to me, bushcraft is a compilation of wilderness skills. Bush = Wilderness; Craft = Skill

From that perspective, the skills themselves are valuable. Knowing how to navigate in the bush; how to process wood and make fire; how to find water and suitable shelter locations; how to track game, etc are all valuable skills that in one way or another will prove useful to the outdoorsman. These skills can either make an outing in the woods more pleasurable, or when things go bad, can serve to save one’s life.

I must admit however, that recently I have been thinking about another aspect of bushcraft, which while poorly defined, for me at least, seems to be true. That is, bushcraft seems to encourage and in some ways require a willingness to actively interact with the environment. While many outdoor pursuits focus on passive enjoyment of nature, bushcraft tends to require that you get your hands dirty, so to speak. More importantly, bushcraft seeks an acceptance of the fact that one is IN nature and not just an observer, or a traveler trying to shield himself from her effects.

The combination of the above two things, the skills and the mindset, is what I find so strongly appealing and enticing. Recently I read a statement from Fritz Handel, creator of the BushBuddy stove, where he said “I just enjoy the feeling that my survival doesn't depend on getting anywhere, everything I need is with me.” This echoed with me, not because I worry too much about survival, but rather because bushcraft gives me a sense of freedom when out in the woods.

When you have a good set of basic skills, and have come to accept the fact that you are in nature without that scaring or bothering you, there is an immense sense of freedom which washes over you. You can travel where you want, however you want. It is a great feeling to know that the worse thing that can happen if you get stuck out another night is that you will have to explain to your boss why you didn’t show up to work.

The mindset and skills encompassed by bushcraft, more than anything else, provide me with this sense of freedom when in the woods.

I certainly do not want to go too far here. I still find statements about being one with nature, thriving in nature, bushcraft being wisdom, etc, based more on excessive television watching than on reality. Even more so, as I discussed in my prior posts, bushcraft can be a double edged sword. In the same way that it can serve to provide this sense of freedom and self reliance when out in the woods, it can just as easily serve to destroy that freedom. Too much preoccupation with skills and reliance on a set of gear selected from a random historic period can kill our ability to travel through the woods in a direction of our choosing. It can chain us down to the parking lot as much as a fear of the woods.

When looked at more broadly however, bushcraft can offer many rewards to the woodsman. For me the ability to stand in the middle of the forest, and decide that I will cross over that mountain just because I want to see what’s on the other side; that I will camp wherever night finds me; and that I will return whenever I can, is what has always had the strongest draw for me. The skills encompassed by bushcraft and the active interaction with the environment that it encourages go a long way towards allowing me to have the confidence and ability to do those things.

Hultafors Axes Finally Available

As you guys know from my prior posts, Hultafors axes, made by what used to be Hults Bruk, are not available for sale in the US. For some reason Hultafors is worried about liability issues with axes in the US. All that silliness aside, it made it very difficult to get your hands on one of their axes. The last one I reviewed, I had to get shipped from Germany. Well, I am told that there is a Canadian distributor that now ships to the US.

The distributor is Bushcraft Canada. On their site you will find several Hultafors axes available for sale, which can be shipped to the US. I am told by people that the owner is great to deal with, and will find you other models as well if you ask. It is certainly worth a try.

An Eskimo Strike-a-Light

A few day ago, Woodsrunner posted a link to a great piece of writing, detailing a fire lighting technique used by certain Eskimo groups. The technique closely resembles the flint and steel method, but predates the use of steel/iron strikers. It is also interesting to note their tinder selection, and some areas where technology has effected the technique.

In the interest of not loosing track of this document, I have uploaded it myself. You can download it here.

Trip Report: 6/9/12 – 6/10/12

As it turned out, I was free last weekend, so I went to the AMC website to see if there were any interesting trips planned. I saw that one of the group leaders I know was leading a beginner backpacking trip to the Catskills. I emailed her, and before you know it, I was along for the trip to help out.

The trip was to be in the Indian Head Wilderness Area. We would start at the Meads parking are and follow the trails Plalte Clove parking area. We would then shuttle back down to pick up the cars left at the starting spot. We would overnight at the Devil’s Point lean to site. There was no bushwhacking involved here. :)

So, at 8:30 AM we were ready to go. All together we had eight people in the group. While I am not in the picture, you can see my pack resting on the rock.

About two miles up the trail we reached some ruins of what used to be a hotel. There were several rebuilds on the site starting in the 1800s, but all that is left now are these ruins.

By this point it was lightly raining. Since the humidity was very high, I resisted putting on any rain gear. I would have gotten more wet from sweating inside the clothing, than I was from the rain.  Even so, as you can see I was rather wet at this point.

There was a clearly defined water source at this location. It seems to have been a part of the hotel. You can see the rain drops hitting the water.

Eventually the trail climbed up to the ridgeline that we would follow for the rest of the day. Eventually we reached a fire tower that is maintained by the State there. It offered some great views.

Unfortunately, the views confirmed that there will be plenty of rain to come.

At this point we stopped for some lunch. I found a bit shelter from the rain under some trees. Nothing special, just some dried salami, a granola bad and some nuts. I like to keep food simple during the day.

After lunch it was back on the trail. The rain was really coming down at that point, so my extremely low quality and extremely old rain gear had to come out.

The rain brought out some of the water loving creatures.

We got to the area where we had planned to camp fairly early in the afternoon. The rain had slowed down some, so we used the opportunity to set up.

We had a great water source close by. Ordinarily, I would say that it was too close to where we were camped, but the temperature was low enough that the insects were not too much of a problem.

I used the opportunity to fill up on water. I am still using the Sawyer Squeeze Filter, and I have been very happy with it. Absolutely no issues so far.

Since it was still early, we decided to go up Devil’s Path, and see if we can reach the top of the mountain. It would be a climb of about a twelve hundred feet, so we weren’t sure if we would burn out in the attempt. The going was not easy at all, especially with the ground being wet. We eventually got up to about three hundred feet from the top, and decided to call it a day.

From there it was back to the camp site. There I spent a good chunk of the evening trying to get the camera to focus on a moth.

Oh, and cooking food. I’m still using the modified Kovea Camp 5. So far, so good.

Now that the work for the day was done, I started dealing with some of the issues. The previous day had been a very hot one, so I expected more of the same for the weekend. All I had brought was an extra fleece shirt that I had been keeping dry in my backpack. The temperature was now hovering in an area around high 50F, where I wasn’t sure If that one shirt would be enough. On top of that, everything was wet, and there was little chance of drying it with the rain and humidity. I took off my wet shirt and put on the fleece. I was just warm enough in the evening. I figured I would be cold in the morning, as the temperature tends to drop late during the night.

So, I took off all my wet clothing, and got in the sleeping bag. The night turned out to be a warm one, so I wasn’t cold. When I woke up, I saw that as expected, all my clothing was still wet. I put it on, and got back in the sleeping bag to warm it up. If this was more than an overnight trip, I wouldn’t do that because moisture from the clothing will get in the sleeping bag, but I was headed home that day, so it would have a chance to dry out.

After breakfast, we hit the trail again. The salamanders were out and about since everything was wet.

We also passed by an old rock quarry. It looked like there was quite a bit of mining done in this area.

There were also remnants of an old road that was used to transport the stone off the mountain. At one time it was used as a trail, but had gotten washed out.

Towards the end of the trip, we passed next to a series of waterfalls. Some of them were a bit off trail, but a person in the group had lived there before and knew the locations.

From there, it was back to the parking lot, and a bit of shuttling back and forth to the other location where we started on the trail. This time I managed to GPS the whole trip. The offshoot you see on the map to the right is where we went up Indian Head Mountain, and then went back. The small one on the left was the one to the ruins and fire tower earlier in the trip.

You can also see the elevation profile. Even though this was a beginner trip, it was actually a strenuous hike. We had some people who were having a hard time, and at the end of day one, I was about spent as well.

Anyway, it was a fun trip, and I’m glad I did it. The next one will be on 6/23/12 with a few guys from Blades & Bushcraft. We will be headed towards Hunter Mountain, which is fairly close to this location.